Comments (14) to “Whittier Narrows Nature Center ~ South El Monte”

1. Jim Odling wrote:

   

   On Monday May 5,2008 a panel of biologists of the LA County Department of Regional Planning rejected the Discovery Center in the Whittier Narrows Natural Area, declaring it “incompatible” in the Significant Ecological Area. The Discovery Center proponents intend to ignore the advice and move to release an Environmental Impact Report during the summer.

   Your account with its terrific photography is linked at the Friends of the Whittier Narrows Natural Area website naturalareafriends.net.

   Posted on 09-May-08 at 9:24 am | Permalink

2. R20 wrote:

   

   The “friends” of the nature center are a bunch of old white people who do not represent the communities the center will serve. The new discovery center will help create a better location to educate and expose the children from local park poor areas on nature and water quality/preservation issues. The new development is by no means something that will keep them indoors, but will serve as a better structure to facilitate having MORE local kids come and use this wildlife sanctuary. Please do not drink the bullspit swill these old white folks who do not represent the community are spewing, their website is full of inaccuracies and overdramatic wording to push their goal of eliminating a potential educational asset to the communities of el monte, South El Monte, pico Rivera, Whittier, Basset and Montebello.

   The new center will encroach on a few non native trees and help fix much of the area that is currently overgrown with weeds. the folks who are against it are afraid their jobs are in danger and little else. the current center also does a poor job of serving the community. I grew up around the El Monte area, as did my wife and her family and several inlaws, and none of us knew about this center (as well as tons of kids fromt he highschool across the street). I also have used every part of the Whitter Narrows park except this nature center. these folks are fighting to keep their little sanctuary at the expense of the community’s benefit. that is pure BS, they do not represent the community AT ALL. they represent their own narrow agenda, they even have some young girl as their token local youth representative, otherwise they are angry old folks afraid of change who live in claremont, downey and other places not near the center. Dont belive their lies, they are in it to fight positive change and keep their jobs (the sad part is the expansion would actually ensure their jobs, but them being old NIMBYs are staunchly anti change).

   Posted on 25-Jun-08 at 11:44 am | Permalink

3. Tardigrade wrote:

   

   “… old white people…”

   I guess prejudice comes in all forms and never hits targets accurately, like an old musket Just said to hurt people. What kind of person would say such things? Obviously, not someone who knows who the ‘Friends’ are. This person above. if this man met with any of the, “…old white people…” would meet people of all colors and even native people, too.

   “… Narrow agenda…” how is narrow anything to do with saving open space for everyone? And since when do retired people need to keep their jobs? Only thing that keeps people coming to the Narrows is love of nature. Love of the excitement of children as they see for the first time, a ground squirrel or the hawks which drift over head. By the way. weeds are a state of mind – defined by people who don’t like ‘those’ specific plants. So, I am afraid the man above is a silly old sour person himself.

   There is an old children’s story about how the Emperor of Someland wanted to own everything and even the nightingale because its evening song was the sweetest in all the world. So, the Emperor told his minions to kill all the wild nightingales and then build a bird of gold that would sing only to the Emperor at night. The people cried to see their beautiful birds killed and driven form their land. But, the Emperor was very happy for every night only HE heard his golden wind-up bird sing him to sleep….. Then one night the spring broke in the Emperor’s golden bird. The wind-up toy could not sing and the Emperor could not sleep. He called all his men to hunt through the land for another nightingale, but none were found – all were killed. The Emperor grew thin and could not eat and his army thought that he would soon die. But, one small child in a far away place protected the nightingales in the family yard. The guards from the palace found the little family, an old couple with their only son. They gave a bird, which the greedy guards rushed to the Emperor. The little bird sang all the way and the Emperor could hear the high trills from a distance, and he started to feel life again. The small boy walked all night and one day to see the Emperor and to visit this last bird. The boy found the Emperor sitting on the floor, the last bird look ill. “What did I do?” cried the Emperor. “You cannot cage the nightingale.” said the small boy. “It is wild and must be free and the land it lives in must also be free.” “But I am the Emperor! I must own everything that is good and beautiful!” “No.” said the boy, “The nightingale is for everyone. And free so that it can sing.” The Emperor, released the bird and it flew out the window. Even though the Emperor was sad that he had to let the bird free, it sang to him the next night, and a week after that another bird came, and they sang to him and then another and another.

   Posted on 20-Aug-08 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

4. R20 wrote:

   

   Tardigrade, like the “friends” of the nature center’s stance, your response containts few facts a lot of hyperbolic fluff. The folks from the org DO NOT resemble the surrounding communities, yet they lie and note they represent the local communities. That is why I note, correctly, that they are generally a bunch of old white people from downey and Claremont, look at the darn website of theirs for confirmation, or meet them in person if you dont belive me (actually it is obvious that you are a “friends” member). They are not “saving” anything but a couple dozen square feet of underkept scrub on a large nature reserve. They have lied and overdramatized the situation by claiming that the removal of a few trees and minimal amount of space is somehow endangering the habitat of protected species, which is absurd, especially considering this contested space abuts dozens of acres of habitat.

   They have disregarded the needs of their local communities, who they are supposed to serve, for their own personal interests and fear of change.

   The worst part is that I actually agree that the size of the new center should be scaled down a bit and the parking lot should be reduced by creating curb parking along Durfee, but the lies and ridiculous behavior of the FotNC people is undignified and outright disinformative. I found out about this controversy from a pamplet of these “friends’, and dug deeper into the issue and found out they are lying to further their own narrow agenda.

   By narrow agenda I mean attempting to stop a major community asset (a facility that can handle more visits from local school kids from the area) for the surrounding park/nature resource poor community to save a couple dozen square feet of unmanaged land. By narrow minded I mean disregarding local needs, and actually complaining that the new center will bring in “too many kids”, including kids from across the street at South El Monte HS who dont even know the place exists.

   I am from El Monte, know tons of people in nearby areas, have used the Whittier Narrows Recreation area ALL MY LIFE, and have never known about this nature center until quite recently, and neither has anyone I know. Why is that? Why do the FotNC not want to serve their local communities (possibly because they are not from and do not resemble those communities?)? Why do the FotNC prioritize an absurdly small amount of land filled with non native species over educating locals who are nature-deprived? Why do they think they deserve this land and have the entitlement to hoard it for themselves by blocking an enhancement that will open it up to locals in a much higher degree? Why do they think it is acceptable to spread outright lies, overdramatize a situation that is pretty cut and dry, and scream bloody murder about an issue that will be beneficial to the area as well as minimally impact the existing natural area?

   The FotNC’s stance does not add up, and the content of their argument (lots of overemotional drivel, little factual substance) and tactics are extremely suspect. Like I said before, it is a bunch of old white people ignring the needs of the local community so they can hoard their little sanctuary. And I challenge you or anyone else to prove me wrong. I am letting all the homeboys I know from El monte, Bassett and Pico Rivera about this place and the activities of the FotNC.

   The community’s needs will be met!

   Posted on 29-Aug-08 at 11:49 am | Permalink

5. tardigrade wrote:

   

   Oh, you silly old person, you, Mr. R20.

   I don’t know what you love or really care about, but you missed a wonderful day yesterday.

   Under the huge trees near the Nature Center, we had a Photo Show. The photos were of the plants, the animals, the insects – they were FANTASTIC! The photographers, from the community and who represented different ethnic backgrounds, brought their love of the “UN-managed” open space.

   YOU make me laugh, Mr. R20. If you have a God, you should know that PEOPLE do NOT manage Nature. Nature manages us. Here are a few examples: How well are you doing at NOT growing old? Or keeping the weeds out of your lawn? Or not getting sick? or not being hungry? Surprise! People manage very few things on this planet, and what things they do “MANAGE”, they do not do well! Example: read the news papers!

   Anyway… back to yesterday. Some of our friends, who are citizens here in the US but hail from Guatemala, Ecuador, Argentina helped us build a display (and came back to help us break it down) for the photographers.

   … Oh, I forgot to say, there were six photographers. We had hundreds of pictures to choose from so, to pick what we could display was very hard. All in all we had 54 images on the 128 foot plywood displays donated to us by Home depot. One photographer works normally for the newspapers, another person works at the Air Quality Board, another retired engineer from ATT, another retired teacher, and a librarian. All from different backgrounds – all smart – all talented – all from the community of El Monte, South El Monty, Whittier.

   Let me point out that THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN – FOR FOUR GENERATIONS OF ALL BACKGROUNDS – HAVE COME TO THE NARROWS TO LEARN ABOUT NATURE AND TO RESPECT IT. …… But, Mr. R20 you missed it! AGAIN!!!!!

   We had people come into the area from the trails and drop-ins from seeing signs on the street. We had other photographers come to view the work and stay to meet the artists who were honored. The Mayor and the Congressmen sat under the trees to talk and to buy raffle tickets for pictures and things given to the Center by other local businesses. “We need to do this again!” said the mayor.

   Lots of the photographs were sold yesterday to feed the animals that the thousands of children see and learn about at the Nature Center. We, very clearly, had several hundred people come yesterday at our LITTLE NATURE CENTER BUT HUGE OPEN SPACE.

   I have to tell you – it was like having a picnic with family and close friends. Art, friends, and the trees – WHAT more could you ask for?

   !!!!!!! BUT Mr. R20….. you missed your chance ONCE AGAIN to make friends and love life.
   AND!!!! You missed a wonderful day ~ once again. What were you doing? Watching television?

   Getting involved means you have to do it! I AND EVERYONE ELSE CANNOT DO IT FOR YOU!

   These photographers, the docents from the Nature Center, and even the Friends of the Natural Area,…. if you live in El Monte,…. are your neighbors – your ‘home boys’ and … let me demonstrate an error of your thinking … ‘home women’, too.

   Dear Mr. R20, I understand that there is no way you can ever really understand the Open Space of Whittier Narrows. If you have lived here all your life and you missed this place…

   Well, all I can say is this…

   You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

   And that goes for EVERYTHING! It is YOUR responsibility – I cannot make that any more clear.

   And you probably had other things on your mind rather then walking with Nature, yesterday, understanding that you have no real power to manage it… only to destroy and kill it… As John Muir would say, “An idiot can kill a tree because it just stands there.”

   p.s.

   Every study shows that there is less open space per person in disadvantaged communities then ‘UP SCALE’ ones – WHY? you may ask. Because, ‘money’ sees poor communities’ who own forests, open land… and the people who live there… as easy targets to persuade to give up that valuable land And for.. what… businesses, dump sites, dams, and buildings for high paid executives and … governmental back scratching cronies.

   READ the work done by SCAG… Southern California Association of Governments.. a volunteer group that studies problems cities have and what steps should be taken to correct them.

   You, Sir, are advocating giving up the Natural Area to the Wealthy by couching your real intent with what the RMC encourages, “It’s for the Children!”

   I smell a rat. Sir.

   Posted on 07-Sep-08 at 11:06 am | Permalink

6. R20 wrote:

   

   Ah, I see I have run into one of the “friends” here, haha. I actually should stop engaging in this nonsense with you, as you have chose not to answer one single question I asked, despite the fact that I laid out the facts and have responded to the rational statements you have made. You see that’s called personal accountability, and when you are trying to sway people during a controversial issues it helps to use facts and honest answers rather than misinformative dribel and personal attacks. I am an environmental scientist who grew up in El Monte who fully supports open space proection and ineraction with local urban communities (like those around the Whit Narrows), I found out about this issue from a pamplet one of your members gave to me at an environmental event. When I asked similar questions to your member (he was an old white man, how racist of me to note his ethnicity huh? or how he does not represent the surrounding communities demographically, that is is SO irrelevant) he too made up lies, got testy with me and begun with the “you dont understand and support nature like I do” rant which led me to my position. After doing my homework on the issue and getting the story from both sides I have come to my position. The response I have gotten from you and this other “friends” member are indicative of a BS agenda that does not have factual backing, and I would bet are a good part of why you CANNOT answer my questions still. So let me break down your dribel, and see if you can answer my questions like an adult (or fall back on personal attacks, hyperbolic fluff and irrelevant anecdotes that you feel are artsy as you have done so far):

   “Oh, you silly old person, you, Mr. R20.”

   With the exception of that spaced out young girl you tout around as your “community support” you guys really are a bunch of old folks, huh? At least you talk/type like one, in all honesty.

   “I don’t know what you love or really care about, but you missed a wonderful day yesterday. Under the huge trees near the Nature Center, we had a Photo Show…..”

   Ahh yes, the “stick to hyperbole and fluffy anecedotes to get my point across” position, works well to save face but really does not answer my questions about the goal of your group, now does it? I also like that little personal attack about what I care about, real valid and totally shuts me up. If I was in 6th grade I’d be speechless. But unfortunately this is the adult world, and you have to make factual responses if you want people to agree with you. i care about the environment very much, as well as the kids from urban parts of LA engaging and experiencing it, which is why I support the improvements to the Nature/Discovery center. The expansion enables a lot more foot traffic to go through there and experience creation, at the expense of very minimal habitat loss. So the positives outweight the negatives in my book on this one.

   “The photographers, from the community and who represented different ethnic backgrounds, brought their love of the “UN-managed” open space.”

   This in no way shows that the FotNC are not a bunch of elderly white people, my point that is true and has not been disproven. Your insiuation that multiethnic photographers were present is actually offensive to me, as if some token pigment somehow validates your majority “old and white and not from neighboring communities” membership as a valid community entity, which it is not.

   “YOU make me laugh, Mr. R20. If you have a God, you should know that PEOPLE do NOT manage Nature. Nature manages us.”

   Good job, you are explaining to a environmental specialist a 5th grade nature lesson, I had no idea nature was uncontrollable or that us as a facet of nature are controlled by our natural surrounding, how ground breaking. And how did my personal religious beliefs become relevant again? One thing I do know is that invasive species overgrowth and non native trees, like the ones on the several dozen yards of supposed “habitat” can be mitigated by native plantings and follow through, even our (or at least my) native ancestors addressed ecological harmony with brush clearance through wildfires.

   “Here are a few examples: How well are you doing at NOT growing old? Or keeping the weeds out of your lawn? Or not getting sick? or not being hungry? Surprise! People manage very few things on this planet, and what things they do “MANAGE”, they do not do well! Example: read the news papers!”

   Again, more anecdotal fluff with little or no relevance to my questions or even the topic at hand. You went through all this trouble to waste my time with nonsense but you really didnt have the time to answer my valid questions? REALLY? Why is a few dozen square feet of undermanaged nonative growht more important that opening up this resource to a lot mor elocals and kids? Explain to me why the contested couple dozen square yards is so important to habitat in a nature presevre that is several hundred acres big? In a recreation area with numerous native areas (including the abutting montebello hills, the largest open space in the area) what is so significant about this few dozen yards? So important that a huge asset to locals should be halted? I am still not clear on that and your comments are BS until that question is answered in a direct manner. No stupid anecdotes about horsey rides and sunlight, facts por favor.

   “Anyway… back to yesterday. Some of our friends, who are citizens here in the US but hail from Guatemala, Ecuador, Argentina helped us build a display (and came back to help us break it down) for the photographers.”

   Almost EVERYONE in your organization is old and white, and few live in the working class communities abutting Whittier Narrows. the fact that some diverse folks helped means NOTHING, stop trying to use tokenism as some way of validating your group of old white middle class ecology enthusiasts trying to fight a nature center that will service the local urban minority populations. THAt is offensive and ignorant.

   “… Oh, I forgot to say, there were six photographers. We had hundreds of pictures to choose from so, to pick what we could display was very hard. All in all we had 54 images on the 128 foot plywood displays donated to us by Home depot. One photographer works normally for the newspapers, another person works at the Air Quality Board, another retired engineer from ATT, another retired teacher, and a librarian. All from different backgrounds – all smart – all talented – all from the community of El Monte, South El Monty, Whittier.”

   As I said before, they were not members of your organization. Your members are a mojority old white and not from El Monte, South El Monte or the flatlands of Whittier. And did you have to trick them into buying your line like you did with me? Through half truths, exxagerations, lies and that little ethically wrong stunt of inviting tour patrons into your anti-disc. center meeting after the walk. I actually digged you guys up until that point, I had ignored my negative experience with your outreach but that really made the whole operation fishy in my eyes, I’d advise you guys stop that. it turns folks off and is possibly illegal.

   “Let me point out that THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN – FOR FOUR GENERATIONS OF ALL BACKGROUNDS – HAVE COME TO THE NARROWS TO LEARN ABOUT NATURE AND TO RESPECT IT. …… But, Mr. R20 you missed it! AGAIN!!!!!”

   That’s right, merely thousands. In an area with HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of kids (possibly millions over the past 4 decades), and meaning a lot more kids than the few you guys have serviced. The children in South El Monte Highschool Science classes across the street dont even know of your center, why is that? I have used almost every recreation and natural area in the Whitier narrows and never heard about your nature center, why is that? Why have none of my freinds and family in the area not know of your place, including science teachers? I go to leg lake, marano beach, the rio natural bottom section, but never your center because i never knew about it. but you tout that as something wrong with me rather than your center, which should be doing better outreach to the communities they are supposed to serve, that should be something yout guys are ashamed of, not attacking people about. after all, that is why they want to expand your cener to begin with, so that it may properly serve locals and not just a few docents and ecologist community.

   “We had people come into the area from the trails and drop-ins from seeing signs on the street. We had other photographers come to view the work and stay to meet the artists who were honored. The Mayor and the Congressmen sat under the trees to talk and to buy raffle tickets for pictures and things given to the Center by other local businesses. “We need to do this again!” said the mayor. ”

   Oh I see, you guys used a nuetral celebration of the art created by that natural area as a platform to push your agenda about the discovery center, good job. Have you guys ever heard of ethics? Or misuse of public resources for personal motives? if you want to picket an improvement to the center than do it on YOUR own time and dime, and do it with abosultely no connection to the positives of the natural habitat nearby. The new center will not demolish the surrounding environment in any significant way. In fact, that is why you guys lie and overexxagerate, because in reality the “habitat destruction” will be a few dozen yards near the existing center, next to a preserve of several dozen or hundred acres. I really do hope an environmental scientist will explain to your team how minimal that really is, and how it holds no water in a logical world once the lies and exagerations are cleared up.

   “Lots of the photographs were sold yesterday to feed the animals that the thousands of children see and learn about at the Nature Center. We, very clearly, had several hundred people come yesterday at our LITTLE NATURE CENTER BUT HUGE OPEN SPACE.”

   You just proved my point for me. The area around the nature center is a HUGE natural habitat, extending for hundreds of acres, including important riparian ecotones. The portion of land the new improved center will absorb is a few dozen yards, which is extremely minute in relation to the natural area’s size. The existing nature center is quite small, poorly designed, and needs to be improved and expanded to fit the needs of local communities that are nature starved. You are trying to sell the natural habitat and nature center as one thing in order to push your agenda, as if replacing the center (but not the habitat area) will somehow erase both when it will not, that is called lying or misinforming people. Again sadly, I enjoyed the cookiness of the existing place and hope it’s preserved in the new space, but you guys would rather lie and harass people than tell the truth or try and get the best solution for everyone.

   “I have to tell you – it was like having a picnic with family and close friends. Art, friends, and the trees – WHAT more could you ask for?”

   Pleas for the obvious imply you have no factual substance for your position. I also like candy and sunshine as well. and I like trees and nature as well as my family, which is why I support the improvemnt to your nature center.

   “BUT Mr. R20….. you missed your chance ONCE AGAIN to make friends and love life.”

   That implies that I do not love life, which is totally wrong and again, a personal attack made in lieu of answering ym questions of presenting a legitimate factual position on the matter.

   “You missed a wonderful day ~ once again. What were you doing? Watching television?”

   I was at a wedding enjoying my life rather than snarling about some center imrpovement. So will you ever answer my questions with anything relevant, or is assumptive personal attacks backed by no credible facts how you prefer to operate?

   “Getting involved means you have to do it! I AND EVERYONE ELSE CANNOT DO IT FOR YOU!”

   Um, that is what I am doing now, letting you people know YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE GOOD OF THE LOCALS OR THEIR WILL, so stop lying about it like you are. Still, on with the hyperbole dribel.

   These photographers, the docents from the Nature Center, and even the Friends of the Natural Area,…. if you live in El Monte,…. are your neighbors –

   No they are not, they are white people from downey, claremont and the whittier hills. dont lie, your org does not match the communities demographics at all, it a bunch of elderly white people with a hand full of minorities used as toekn validation.

   “your ‘home boys’ and … let me demonstrate an error of your thinking … ‘home women’, too.”

   I know you are grasping for straws here, but you are not opening my eyes to femisnism either. It is a pathetic attempt to divert attention from the issue, which is that you guys DO NOT represent the community. And Ill have homegirls come too if that makes you feel better.

   “Dear Mr. R20, I understand that there is no way you can ever really understand the Open Space of Whittier Narrows. If you have lived here all your life and you missed this place…”

   That pathetic “you somehow dont understand nature as well as we do” crap is condescending and false. I am environmental scientist, I understand nature just fine. I was also raised by my native grandparents and was taught about the humans being an extension of the land since i was a baby, none of it taught to me by books but by life. I know the bulk of the area like the back of my hand from the resrvoir in Montebello to the Horse trails that go up the SG River. For you to imply my ignorance of your place as my pown personal fault, rahter than that of your own, is pathetic and flat out wrong. You run a nature center in El Monte, and it is YOUR fault that so few children in El Monte know about it. Be an adult and take responsibility where it is due. I spoke to a class in SEM Highschool 2 years back, an earth science class mind you, and NONE of them knew of your center, not one kid out of 120 kids I spoke to, NONE. That is embarassing, and you should be ashamed about it rather than use it as ammo to attack someone who disagrees with your position by belittleing them as “not understanding nature”. bure BS, and offensive BS at that.

   “Well, all I can say is this…”

   What you can do is answer my gosh darned questions for once instead of resorting to personal attacks and stupid stores with no rleevance to the issue, try doing that for once or expect this exchange to end and your org to have found a new enemy.

   “And that goes for EVERYTHING! It is YOUR responsibility – I cannot make that any more clear.”

   Again, good way to shed responsibility for your center doing ahorrible job of outreach to the locals, or facilitating nature education with local schools, I bet you have like 3 teachers who are part of your little insular cult to be enough outreach; kind of like the presence of a few nonwhite people as validation that you guys represent the local communities.

   “And you probably had other things on your mind rather then walking with Nature, yesterday, understanding that you have no real power to manage it… only to destroy and kill it… As John Muir would say, “An idiot can kill a tree because it just stands there.””

   As a ecological scientist, active community member and citizen I have helped create more restored or preserved natural areas that you can ever imagine, and have planted more trees than exist on your enitre grounds. Bitching about an expanded nature center does not qualify one as a nature lover in my book, just a selfish self-righteous fool too arrogant to debate like an adult in lieu of personal attacks that make little sense beyond them feeling big. I was active int he elephant hill struggle as well as the creation of the emerald necklace greenspace plan.

   “Every study shows that there is less open space per person in disadvantaged communities then ‘UP SCALE’ ones – WHY? you may ask. Because, ‘money’ sees poor communities’ who own forests, open land… and the people who live there… as easy targets to persuade to give up that valuable land And for.. what… businesses, dump sites, dams, and buildings for high paid executives and … governmental back scratching cronies.”

   Rather than debating the facts you again resort to hyperbole (AKA played out buzz words). The nature center will be expanded on a few yards of land abutting the current buildings, nothing more. You choose to throw in all that extra crap about big govt and wealthy extorting the poor as a way to divert attention to that fact that you have no factual basis. The goal of this project is to create an enhanced center to serve more kids and locals and provide a better staging ground/connection for locals and the natural habitat surrounding the center. the project is being built by an organization that builds park space and nature preserves, so spare me the “bog government” nonsense. You are SUPPOSED to serve the local populations and help connect them to that wonderful gem of nature and the new facilities will help do that. and dont tell me anything about rich grabbing land from poor nonwhites, I am half native american, i know that road all too well. This issue has nothing to do with big money/govt taking poor folks natural area, it is about a small community of wealthy white folks wanting to halt an expansion of their facilities in order to hog their little private sanctuary at the expense of the wroking class locals being robbed a great natural experience. They are not building condos or a Walmart there, they are expanding the exisitng center by a few dozen yards, which WIL NOT affect 95% of the natural habitat ont he grounds, and may possibly improve a lot of it with native plantings.

   “READ the work done by SCAG… Southern California Association of Governments.. a volunteer group that studies problems cities have and what steps should be taken to correct them.”

   I work with SCAG and am familiar with their works, what doument are you referring to that says the needs of a few old white folks is more important than the communities a center serves?

   “You, Sir, are advocating giving up the Natural Area to the Wealthy by couching your real intent with what the RMC encourages, “It’s for the Children!””

   Again with the lies. The natural area will remain intact, the nature center (the actual building and non native several dozen yards of space) is what will change for the better. You seem to be bent on making the two facets of this property one and the same rather than noting them as seperate aspects, which they are. I guess it falls in line with misinforming people to push your narrow agenda, how suprising. Please explain to me in raw numbers (what % of the natural area wil be affected) how the consturction of new building will destroy the entire hundred acre property? And I still have yet to figure out what evil agenda the RMC has? I have only heard good things about the organization, and have worked with them to stop the demolition of the La Laguna childrens park in San Gabriel. What’s your beef with them? Is there something wrong about them I need to know of? Please enlighten me with facts from reality.

   “I smell a rat. Sir.”

   It’s called “friends of the nature center”. More like “old white middle class friends of keeping the nature center inadequate to serve their neighbors so that they can keep their little quiet sanctuary a secret”, you guys should really change your name. Or make a better case because it still smells like BS and YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS AT ALL.

   Any further response you give should addres my concerns or it will be ignored and your stance presumed invalid.

   Posted on 13-Sep-08 at 1:59 am | Permalink

7. tardigrade wrote:

   

   Let’s do the math…..Mr. R20

   18 thousand square foot for the ‘Discover Nature’ Building … this equals 1/5 of an acre

   The 150 parking spaces will, by themselves, take up 24,300 square feet then add all the lanes and other concrete … lets be conservative… and say that another 24,300 square feet will be needed just to back out of and drive into the spaces… Added that is 48,600…OH! Let’s round up… Let’s say 50 thousand feet will be used for parking.

   Now remember, an acre is about 43,560 square feet… So the Discovery building will take up..

   let’s add it up!!

   50,000
   18,000
   = 68,000 square feet of the riparian area and percolation surface (for rain and YOUR drinking water)…

   If you walk that area, which many of us have, you will see that all of that stuff butts right into the areas of the endangered animals.

   http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.0286907&lon=-118.055563&z=15&l=0&m=a&v=2&search=whittier%20narrows%20natural%20area

   IF you bothered to read the RMC’s feasibility reports that our tax dollars have already paid for and, you can down load from their the RMC’s site, you will notice that the Discovery Center is only the tip of the ice berg. Something called Lario Creek is going to shunt the water past the parking lot out to the other side, in a zig-zag fashion ( of the Natural Area). The Project is actually a multi-phased and will change the Natural Area into a work intensive plot of land that will need lots of irrigation to support the tiny trees they plan to replace the mature ones that have tap roots near the aquifer…. By the way, you can see that some of the trees that don’t have tap roots have died because of no irrigation and the decreased depth of the aquifer.

   You see….

   The Whittier Narrows is an important area for the Valley’s drinking water. It also demonstrates the problems of our Valley… It is THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE. The Valley is loosing – BIG TIME – precious drinking water….

   Let me explain…

   If you drive North up the 605 freeway you will notice HUGE holes that Vulcan (and other companies) have dug into the ground. That water that you see is the top of our aquifer…. YEP FOLKS! You are looking at the water you drink. AND if you had taken a picture of those holes in 2005 (I did and a few years after that) you would realize that the water level has greatly decreased. Essentially, those holes are evaporating OUR water in the aquifer AND exposing it to the junk from the freeways….

   But let’s go back to Whittier Narrows… YOU see… El Monte drinks the water from the upper Valley where those holes are…. and any water that percolates through the DEEP sands of the Narrows….

   By the way, the deep sands go hundreds of feet below the surface at the Narrows (This information is all on the RMC site, you just have to down load the PDFs and READ IT!!!) and this sand is vital for CLEANING the water that falls from the sky… you could do some self educating by looking up what a sand filter is on Google.

   Below the ground of the San Gabriel Valley is a vast body of water… However, much has been tainted with a compound called perchlorate – a by product of the defense industries. The industries just dumped it and, because it is a Hydrophilic substance like MTBE, rain water and such, brought the compound in contact with the aquifer below. (You can separate viruses and hydorphobic materials in sand filters … the perchlorate/MTBE ‘hangs’ with water because of dipoles and bonding)…Also, the natural sand filter of the Valley did not work because of the immense quantity of the toxics. The San Gabriel Valley is still considered a Super Fund Site and the compound has many years to go of air scrubbing before the levels are low enough so that pumping below a certain point in the aquifer, the Water Agencies won’t be bringing it to your tap…though they have to some degree, anyway… It’s a substance that causes developing fetuses to develop small brains… It has to do with the hormone in thyroid glands…look it up.

   NOW, you ask… what has this to do with the Narrows?

   Well, all around the Narrows are freeways and houses and buildings and all sorts of cement which, one) does not allow rain water to go into the aquifer and 2) concentrates the petroleum particles coming from millions of cars and trucks and other junk from industry and 3) shunts the water off to the ocean.

   If you haven’t noticed, we are in a serious drought situation and it is predicted that it will only get worse… You know… Climate Change…. We have less and less snow pack in the Sierras, and the Rockies which are the two MAIN sources of water for ALL of California unless they have some method of preserving their aquifers… EH HEM!

   Is anything getting in the BRAIN yet????

   NO? OK…

   Let’s go on then…. Our Governor Arnold has seen the light and the communities that have grown exponentially like Riverside, San Diego, Sacramento, the Inland Empire ALL NEED THAT WATER…. and the Colorado Aqueduct Water allocation has been reduced for the Imperial Valley… they supply the grains for the cows for the Milk in Northern California… and that also means less Colorado water for Los Angeles because Arizona and New Mexico and Mexico need that water.

   You should be seeing that much of our community…. much of our State… much of our Nation is intricately linked… economically AND environmentally. MONEY AND NATURE go hand in hand. Mess up NATURE Forget MONEY… HOWEVER, it doesn’t go the other way,though…. NATURE is BIGGER.

   The problem that Southern California faces is that it is dependent on outside sources of water and those sourses will be cut from us very soon. Whether we like it or not. AND if we are so STUPID to screw up our water by letting it evaporate away (the holes in the UPPER VALLEY), let people pour toxics on the soils which CAN pollute our ground water, or …. >>>> Here’s the WHY the Discovery Center is just plain and simple stupid…. COVER IMPORTANT PERCOLATION AREAS….. welll… gee…. how does takin’ a bath once a month sound to you? or paying as much for water as wine?

   The head of a Public Entity, who will remain anonymous, once said to me that we should be taking out roads and buildings all around the Narrows. The people in the hillsides of the Mountains should be collecting rain water in cisterns. He said LA specifically and California in general, is about to be in for a WORLD of hurt.

   Now, you may carry on as if I were you archenemy, a Friend of the Nature Center but, if you have been thinking while reading this tome, I have given YOU something, too.

   You are purely blathering on about SHORT TERM POLITICAL GAINS… And, also… I have NO IDEA why you should be interested in a Children Museum anyway… AND in a place you NEVER VISIT!!!

   However… if you are interested in your PERSONAL future and in the future of the Valley, you ought to be thinking beyond building a building and a stupid parking lot.

   FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!~

   … and come on, now… you would read my response anyway cause you are paid to do so.

   Posted on 14-Sep-08 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

8. R20 wrote:

   

   If you are insinuating that I work for the RMC than you are flat out wrong, I happen to be one of several locals concenred about the behavior of the “friends”.

   Furthermore, you continue to not address my questions, and prefer to turn this discussion down red herring debates rather than addressing the facts. I understand watershed and percolation processes, as well as the geology/hydrology of the SGV. Your rant is once again a diversion from answering my questions, FOR THE THIRD TIME. I would kindly ask you to respond in the format I have, by directly answering the questions/responses presented to you.

   How exactly does a couple thousand square feet of land justify the halting of an important nature resource in the SGV? Wont the parking lot contain permeable surfaces, swales and other percolation features to help retain water and clean it through bio-osmosis? Couldnt a large chunk of the proposed parking lot be reduced on this new development by allowing curbside parking along the several hundred feet of Durfee currently painted red (as well as help aid in connectivity to South EM HS as well as mitigate speeders?).

   And how exactly is servicing locals kids and citizens with a better facility to connect them to the wonderful reserve ( I have been there BTW, quite recently for the 1st time, with my kids) some kind of “short term political gain”?

   You see, this kind of “half truth” telling is misniformative, you decry the parking lot size yet leave out the permeable materials to be used and water retention features as well as the possibility of mitigating the lot size by using on-street parking; why do you prefer not to divulge the WHOLE STORY?

   You appear to be more concenred about making personal attacks on me, a local resident and concenred citizen with no ties to EITHER SIDE OF THIS BATTLE, than helping inform me or debate this issue honestly and openly, why is that? Your organization seems pretty good at talking to politicos and telling half truths to the ecoloy community, but hanst done much in the actual communities of El monte, SEM, Pico Rivera and West Whittier, why is that? Why have you guys not tried to outreach to locals schools in order to promote more kids visitng the center, therefore reinforcing your position that the curent center, as it is, is enough of a local resource and does not need upgrading?

   Again, for the last time, do not go off on some tangent indirectly related to the issue at hand, DIRECTLY ANSWER MY QUESTIONS LIKE A MATURE ADULT. First it was about habitat, now it’s about water quality, make up your mind. And I am am also STILL WAITING to hear what percentage of the actual total Habitat area will be develeloped by this new center.

   As I have hinted about several times, I actually agree with some of the FotNC points, but you people seem dogmatic and only concenred with fighting rather than being honest and building up valid community support. Since I have no tseen much else I have come to the conclusion this is because your “all or nothing” stance and bulk of points will not hold water in the eye of the community. Do me a favor and prove me wrong instead of trying to bicker with me, that’s called outreach.

   Posted on 15-Sep-08 at 11:01 am | Permalink

9. Bill wrote:

   

   R20
   I am a 70 year old white man from Whittier. I am not a member of this orginization. I have been using this facility for many of my years. Our Scouts have done many Eagle Projects here to serve the public and complete a very extensive requirement for the Eagle Rank. Most years I bring my Cub Scouts for some very good outdoor training. Currently I am planning a trip for 5,000 Scouts to visit next year.

   Please don’t tell me that no one knows about this place. They have a sign right out on the street.

   Posted on 29-Jun-09 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

10. Chris Caraveo wrote:

    

    To “MR.R20″, You are truly a first class, upscale douche bag!

    If you are 70 than that means you were indoctrinated with prattle such as..”DDT IS GOOD FOR ME” and “HIDING UNDER DESKS WILL SAVE US FROM THE NUCLEAR FALLOUT”!! Stop hiding behind you acronym…
    It’s irresponsible people like you who have trashed our environment and its no wonder why you would back a crooked project such as the “Clandestine D.C.”!
    I will admit there are some old white people but there are old Mexican people as well who are aware of the bigger picture and are making an effort towards the greater cause “Saving green space”!
    There are other youths involved in this battle…as well as teenagers and college students, I included. Just because you lead eagle scouts, does not mean that you have to be self righteous about an issue/s , I’m sure you are not aware of.
    Plus, I have seen the eagle projects you have directed and they are most instances mickey moused, as a matter of fact I and others had to redo one of your projects.
    So… you Must be an old fart to be able to waste all this time writing and heckling people who actually care about the environment and its future.
    Unlike you I will only dedicate ten minutes to this foolishness you seem to indulge in!
    Just shut up an die! You and your generation sold your children’s future
    to corrupt corporations and tyrannous tycoons…DINOSAURS WILL DIE!!!

    You run today… WE WILL RULE TOMORROW!!!

    Don’t you have a date with your maker?
    I think you are late… quit meddling in the matters of those who are aware and conscious, Besides I think you need to prepare for the big sleep your time is near… sleep tight!

    P.S. I will piss on your grave, and others like you!

    Good night…
    And apparently I have no shame!

    Chris Caraveo- I am a young conscious human being who realizes the responsibility I have towards the earth and its future inhabitants, so that they can experience it as we and our ancestors did!

    Posted on 03-Jul-09 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

11. Maria wrote:

    

    I have lived in this community (El Monte/So El Monte) for over 25 years. I really enjoy the Nature Center with its natural inhabitants (non-humans) a simple and quite place to be with nature in our own community. I DO NOT WANT the NATURE CENTER DESTROYED by this UNNECESSARY GIGANTIC PROJECT – DISCOVERY CENTER which WILL NOT PROTECT THE ENVIORNMENT, rather it will destroy it and waste public funds in these bad financial times. The risks are too high and I am worried that this project will start and not finish, we will be hit with the costs (water rate increases, entrance fees, etc.). Worst we will have another vacant building in our community and our Nature Center and its inhabitants gone (stolen from our community). The Discovery Center claims to “represent water conservation” and “protecting the environment”, it should be build at the PECK ROAD WATER CONSERVATION PARK which that place really needs help big time.

    Posted on 06-Jul-09 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

12. christine wrote:

    

    The people who want this center ar very good people who are thinking they are improving the area for more mumbers of the public to use. all can use it now. creating the traffic will destroy it. I live in whitter. I teach in LA. I bring kids every year even the wheelchair bound ones. It is essential to leave it alone or you will drive out the wildlife. Please do not support this. My students and their families from downtown la come back and use it. This is not what the lady who gave it to us intended. honor her wishes. honor the people who use it now. Please I only take 20 kids at a time so we can see the life if you increase numbers, we will not see anything anymore. Please stop this. Put it in another area like the dam.please. thank you.

    Posted on 07-Jul-09 at 11:59 am | Permalink

13. christine wrote:

    

    BY THE WAY I AM HISPANIC. I TEACH AT HOLLENBECK. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. PLEASE STOP AND LEAVE THIS AREA ALONE. THE CENTER IS ALWAYS AVAILABLE TO ALL FROM LAUSD. MANY OF US USE IT. I ONLY HOPE GLORIA MOLINA WILL CHANGE HER STANCE ON THIS.

    Posted on 07-Jul-09 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

14. Greenway7x wrote:

    

    Just going to speak as a native local (multiracial, looks ‘Mexican’, and OLD not that such should matter); I’ll go to Friends of the Whittier Narrows Natural Area, and the San Gabriel River Discovery Center Authority (links in article) later. Some factoids: The Nature Center is extremely friendly (and free) if you actually get there. It’s literally forbidding outside, with rusty ‘Government Property’ No Trespassing signs along the chain link perimeter, as if it was part of the Army Corps of Engineers or Sherriff’s Dept. jailbird stuff facing it. Dispite the signs, you can enter and exit across (Durfee) from the park at Legg Lake and from a kind of canal / bikepath crossroads at the end of the trail opposite the road entry. Peck Rd & Durfee are horrible for non-engine (thus ‘green’) travellers, such as those from RH College or its bus stops. The grounds need a LOT of work: Yes, native veg can look dead in the drought cycle and come back wonderfully; brush piles can be habitat, etc., but there’s so much firetrap dead-crap now that you can find more wildlife (including big mammals and birds) outside the refuge–incl. paved riversides and manicured cemeteries–than in! Clean it up and PLANT NATIVE TREES, esp. rare Tecate Cypress, Bigcone Doug Fir and Torrey Pines; understory with Ceanothus, Hazel, Dogwood, Redbud … When I become Benign Dictator, the Power Grid and parking lots are all going underground, and foot / greenwheel traffic will have things made safe, comfy and convenient for them (politicos & planners will have to largely travel that way!) Stop thinking ‘improvement’ means fancy construction with plaques for the names of pinche hotshots who got the money from taxes and tax dodges! It can be ‘First, Do No Harm’ and a sensible poorfolks way of making a WELCOME.

    Posted on 17-Oct-09 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

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